Q&A With Frans de Waal
Sep. 22, 2009
World-renowned zoologist and psychologist Frans de Waal stayed after his interview with Diane to respond to some of your questions that we couldn’t get to on the air.
Q: Do you think that the lack of working together for the common good in the U.S. versus Europe could be because of the fact that we are all immigrants, whereas European countries are primarily populated by the members of the same nationality? (From Mike in Durham, N.C.)
A: Yes, American society is made of immigrants which are a self-selected group of adventure-seekers and achievers, so this biases the society towards individual achievement. I am all in favor, which is why I came to this country. But it also means that the common good is neglected. I am not saying it should be applied on a massive scale, but at least for health care and education, you need a collective approach because this cannot be left to individual initiative. I agree that European nations, being smaller, have it easier, but they also have a longer history caring for the common good.
Q: Could we talk about the flip side of the empathy that evolved out of small human communities: namely, the territorialism and xenophobia that causes war, etc. I watched a documentary on gang warfare last night, and I was struck by the relationship between the violence between gangs and the strong, empathetic bonds within them. (From Shane, via Facebook.)
A: Empathy is an in-group phenomenon. It probably evolved first within families, then was extended to outside in the group, and the final hurdle, if we call it that, would be the out group. Also in our monkey studies, we found very little evidence for empathy with the outgroup. However, if you build a society consisting of many different groups, this is exactly what you need − finding some common ground between all of them.
Q: Years ago, I conducted research on primate social organization and kin selection. I would like to hear what your guest thinks about the relationship between the extraordinary meanness one finds in Internet reactions (comments posted in response to each other), anonymity, and the absence of physical cues, i.e., the people engaged in the horrible exchange cannot see each other and no one in the troop can see them. Does he think the anonymity the internet affords is responsible in part for the lack of empathy and increasing mean-spiritedness we see in human societies? (From Adrianne in Roanoke, V.A.)
A: Empathy is aroused by physical cues. We see someone cry, we cry. We see someone smile, we smile. This is where empathy starts, between bodies. But the flip side is that if bodily cues are absent, we have no empathic reaction. This was pointed out long ago by Konrad Lorenz, who said that waging war is made easier by distance. It is much harder to kill someone at close range than dropping a bomb from an airplane. The same operates on the internet; if you cannot see your adversary you are more likely to be mean.
Q: I believe there are certain types of individuals who will always have a low level of empathy no matter what. I have lived with one for 23 years and it’s highly stressful and painful. Other women I know who are married to engineering and mathematical types have told me the same thing. If you could come up with a medication to give my husband empathy, I would be forever grateful! (From Lynn).
A: I do think there is a gender difference in empathy. In fact, from day one girls are more empathic than boys. But it is, of course, also true that the two sexes have sometimes trouble understanding each other, so that the empathy of males may be expressed differently or less obviously than in females. I cannot solve your problem, but do note in my book that if I were God and could change one thing about the human species it would be adding some empathy.
